Direct Speech

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ostarella
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Re: Direct Speech

Postby ostarella » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:53 pm

[quote="T.A.Rodgers"]I think if you tell a fantastic story that people can't put down, many of the so called over done crutches no longer matter.[/quote]

Agree - story trumps everything. But if authors can be aware of the crutches, it makes the reading that much better (not so much for the reader to 'forgive'). ;)

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wdarcy
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Re: Direct Speech

Postby wdarcy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:49 pm

I also agree--story trumps everything, even, in some cases, bad writing. But I want my writing to be as good as possible, and I want to avoid the crutches and cliches that might signal the presence of an amateur.

But no question: The story's the thing.

--Warren
"Wagner's 'Das Rheingold'" (Oxford 1993). Winner of the Society for Music Theory's Wallace Berry Award, 1995.

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Re: Direct Speech

Postby sammy2 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:50 pm

[quote="wdarcy"]I also agree--story trumps everything, even, in some cases, bad writing. But I want my writing to be as good as possible, and I want to avoid the crutches and cliches that might signal the presence of an amateur.

But no question: The story's the thing.

--Warren[/quote]


What do you mean by crutch?

Aren't cliches part of the genre for a few types of writing ?

T.A.Rodgers
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Re: Direct Speech

Postby T.A.Rodgers » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:03 pm

I believe Warren is referring to clichés that relate to story. For example, one of the most overused clichés beginning writers tend to use is the opening dream sequence.

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Re: Direct Speech

Postby sammy2 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:11 pm

[quote="T.A.Rodgers"]I believe Warren is referring to clichés that relate to story. For example, one of the most overused clichés beginning writers tend to use is the opening dream sequence.[/quote]


That may be. But what is meant by a crutch ?

I think of old time pulp detective movies for cliche examples.

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Re: Direct Speech

Postby robjvargas » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:07 pm

[quote="sammy2"]
What do you mean by crutch?

Aren't cliches part of the genre for a few types of writing ?[/quote]
No. They are part of too many writers' tools for getting a story moving. Not the genre.

I'd argue that a successful formula isn't quite the same as a cliche. "It was a dark and stormy night" is cliche (IMO, of course). "The night was morbid, sultry." arguably is a retelling of the formula without being cliche.

There's always some subjectivity in that.
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ostarella
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Re: Direct Speech

Postby ostarella » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:09 am

Each genre has elements that help define the genre - but that doesn't make them cliches. And a crutch in writing is something that you don't really need, but it's easier to use it than "walking" on your own.

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Re: Direct Speech

Postby sammy2 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:09 am

[quote="ostarella"]Each genre has elements that help define the genre - but that doesn't make them cliches. And a crutch in writing is something that you don't really need, but it's easier to use it than "walking" on your own.[/quote]


Could you give a specific example illustrating that?
Tnx.

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ostarella
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Re: Direct Speech

Postby ostarella » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:22 pm

[quote="sammy2"][quote="ostarella"]Each genre has elements that help define the genre - but that doesn't make them cliches. And a crutch in writing is something that you don't really need, but it's easier to use it than "walking" on your own.[/quote]


Could you give a specific example illustrating that?
Tnx.[/quote]


Of the genre thing or the crutch thing? ;)

Okay, an example of a crutch is what we were talking about earlier, using adverbs with 'said' instead of working on the context so the readers would understand how it's said instead of having to be told. Same thing with using substitutes for 'said' - laughed, snorted, growled, etc. An occasional/rare use is not a crutch - constant use is.

Even with the genre elements - following them too closely, too routinely, becomes the crutch. The author follows the formula so closely they end up with a 'standard' book, without surprises, without anything unique. On the other hand, using the formula to your own ends gives the reader a surprise, an enjoyable surprise hopefully, and makes them look forward to your next book.

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Re: Direct Speech

Postby sammy2 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:10 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="sammy2"][quote="ostarella"]Each genre has elements that help define the genre - but that doesn't make them cliches. And a crutch in writing is something that you don't really need, but it's easier to use it than "walking" on your own.[/quote]


Could you give a specific example illustrating that?
Tnx.[/quote]


Of the genre thing or the crutch thing? ;)

Okay, an example of a crutch is what we were talking about earlier, using adverbs with 'said' instead of working on the context so the readers would understand how it's said instead of having to be told. Same thing with using substitutes for 'said' - laughed, snorted, growled, etc. An occasional/rare use is not a crutch - constant use is.

Even with the genre elements - following them too closely, too routinely, becomes the crutch. The author follows the formula so closely they end up with a 'standard' book, without surprises, without anything unique. On the other hand, using the formula to your own ends gives the reader a surprise, an enjoyable surprise hopefully, and makes them look forward to your next book.[/quote]



Thanks for the clarification.

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