avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapters

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ostarella
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:03 pm

I've found the only rules to worry about are SpAG. Putting on artificial constraints beyond that merely frustrate the imagination. It becomes about the method, not the story.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:00 pm

[quote="ostarella"]I've found the only rules to worry about are SpAG. Putting on artificial constraints beyond that merely frustrate the imagination. It becomes about the method, not the story.[/quote]
======

that goes against what most professionals do
spag is the last and lowest level of editing

initially the publishers and agents want to do development editing to ensure the story is good and flows logically
later they do content editing to make sure that story was written well
only at the end do they worry about spag

your approach without the planning or development editing leads to problems in their experience
which is why there are development editors

there is absolutely no reason your imagination should be frustrated if you laid out the story logically first and then wrote
and by doing that it ensures you wont waste time and effort or end up with a mediocre story that could have been better

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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby robjvargas » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:08 pm

==there are a few genii like you and king that can pull it off==
I don't set forum rules.

But I know when I'm done dealing with bigots.

The post to which this was a response contained no venom nor personal attack. Yet the poster to whom this was a response was openly derogatory.

I'm done listening such vapid diatribes from such a person.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:30 pm

[quote="robjvargas"]==there are a few genii like you and king that can pull it off==
I don't set forum rules.

But I know when I'm done dealing with bigots.

The post to which this was a response contained no venom nor personal attack. Yet the poster to whom this was a response was openly derogatory.

I'm done listening such vapid diatribes from such a person.[/quote]
===========
balderdash

i was very nice in my reply to one who has constantly attacked me
there was nothing derogatory at all

just a factual statement that you have to be really good to write without planning and be successful
there is a reason real publishers and agents dont just use spag and creativity
there is a reason why there are 5 levels of editing that books have to go through

oh! wait
nobody here has been successful with that approach
pls did self publish some stuff
but nobody espousing pantsing on this forum has been published by a real publisher

if there is a bigot here it is you

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ostarella
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:43 pm

[quote="mike m."]
that goes against what most professionals do
spag is the last and lowest level of editing[/quote]

So are we talking about teaching new students or talking about professional level editing and publishing? It just seems like you switched horses mid-stream.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:04 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]
that goes against what most professionals do
spag is the last and lowest level of editing[/quote]

So are we talking about teaching new students or talking about professional level editing and publishing? It just seems like you switched horses mid-stream.[/quote]
======

both

i would expect to teach students what the *professional* standards and norms are
not what some amateurs do or even some outlier professionals
and use those industry norms as the basis for the process to teach for how to write

the keystone or architecture for the course would be the 5 levels of editing
and how to proceed through them from idea to draft to polished draft to edited for publication with workable processes that fit

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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:07 pm

[quote="mike m."]both

i would expect to teach students what the *professional* standards and norms are not what some amateurs do or even some outlier professionals and use those industry norms as the basis for the process to teach for how to write

the keystone or architecture for the course would be the 5 levels of editing and how to proceed through them from idea to draft to polished draft to edited for publication with workable processes that fit[/quote]



Well, if you're talking about professional standards, then method has no importance whatsoever. Publishers are only interested in the finished product and how much their editors will have to work to get it into publishable state. Yes, self-editing is definitely important, and the various types of editing should be understood and done, but again, whether the editing is done during the writing or after doesn't matter to the publisher, as long as it's done well. Once in the publisher's hands, of course, more editing can occur, and previously done editing may have to be re-done as the author makes suggested changes. So while there may be a general progression from one type to another, it's not absolute in the manner of once past one phase, you never go back again.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:43 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]both

i would expect to teach students what the *professional* standards and norms are not what some amateurs do or even some outlier professionals and use those industry norms as the basis for the process to teach for how to write

the keystone or architecture for the course would be the 5 levels of editing and how to proceed through them from idea to draft to polished draft to edited for publication with workable processes that fit[/quote]



Well, if you're talking about professional standards, then method has no importance whatsoever. Publishers are only interested in the finished product and how much their editors will have to work to get it into publishable state. Yes, self-editing is definitely important, and the various types of editing should be understood and done, but again, whether the editing is done during the writing or after doesn't matter to the publisher, as long as it's done well. Once in the publisher's hands, of course, more editing can occur, and previously done editing may have to be re-done as the author makes suggested changes. So while there may be a general progression from one type to another, it's not absolute in the manner of once past one phase, you never go back again.[/quote]

=======

the publisher will use their process with 5 levels of editing if they are involved

your agent will likely require things that would be easier if you followed the five levels
often they are involved in the story development so you cant pantsit without having an outline
they will require a synopsis before they accept your mss which is hard if you have not planned first

i would still expect teh students to follow the process in the textbook i am writing
that will use the 5 levels of editing as the architecture
and it will use planning as that can be taught

i never said you never went back again
what i said is that if you plan you minimise the need to revisit earlier work at all

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ostarella
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:13 pm

[quote="mike m."]
the publisher will use their process with 5 levels of editing if they are involved

your agent will likely require things that would be easier if you followed the five levels
often they are involved in the story development so you cant pantsit without having an outline
they will require a synopsis before they accept your mss which is hard if you have not planned first

i would still expect teh students to follow the process in the textbook i am writing
that will use the 5 levels of editing as the architecture
and it will use planning as that can be taught

i never said you never went back again
what i said is that if you plan you minimise the need to revisit earlier work at all[/quote]

There are different types of editing - whether an individual publisher uses five or four or three depends on that publisher and how they organize their business.

As far as story development/editing - once again, organic writers of fiction (including the many successfully published ones) will disagree with you on the necessity at any point for an outline.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:22 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]
the publisher will use their process with 5 levels of editing if they are involved

your agent will likely require things that would be easier if you followed the five levels
often they are involved in the story development so you cant pantsit without having an outline
they will require a synopsis before they accept your mss which is hard if you have not planned first

i would still expect teh students to follow the process in the textbook i am writing
that will use the 5 levels of editing as the architecture
and it will use planning as that can be taught

i never said you never went back again
what i said is that if you plan you minimise the need to revisit earlier work at all[/quote]

There are different types of editing - whether an individual publisher uses five or four or three depends on that publisher and how they organize their business.

As far as story development/editing - once again, organic writers of fiction (including the many successfully published ones) will disagree with you on the necessity at any point for an outline.[/quote]
=======

i understand some writers wont outline

but when the agent requires such documents as an outline and synopsis they wont be getting their work accepted will they

if you want to get published you will do an outline and related documents at some point
why not do it first and save a tonne of work and rework

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