WD university - how to outline

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mike m.
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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby mike m. » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:07 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]

you need to stop outlining

start planning and organising
use your creativity and reveals to lay out a good story that makes sense and moves forward logically[/quote]
~~~~~~~~~

Planning and organizing do not have to happen before the story gets written. For many writers, logic and understanding of what has already happened dictates what the next move will be; coupled with the ability to consider options at the moment, and which can be worked into the better story, this negates any necessity for outlines or pre-planning, while the organizing in merely a matter of knowing what's already happened and not writing in opposition to that.

It should be understood that not everyone on the forum is a newbie writer figuring out what method to try. Many of us have been writing for years and know precisely what works best for us. I don't tell my friends who outline/plan/organize that they're doing it wrong. They know what makes it happen for them, and they know what makes it happen for me. The point is to get a well-written finished ms, and that's what we do, no matter what the method.[/quote]
======

it doesnt have to
but it helps do it faster better easier

and as i said you could be iterating as you fill in details if you need to do that to help your creativity flow easier
big picture first
some draft sceness
helps put more details into the 'outline'
more draft
repeat until all done
where the first draft is perfect for the story arc with all the scenes needed in the right sequence with no omissions or extraneous useless ones
then focus on fully writing each scene the best possible

then advance to wordsmithing the entire mss at a lower level of editing
finally focus on the SPAG at the last level of editing

it is so much easier to put those options in while planning at a high level
than to do it after you have a lot of verbiage written already
you can see the big picture clearer without all the details in the way
you can reorganise the sequence easier with 3x5 cards than with pages of electrons on a pc

there is more to making the story better than not merely opposing what came earlier
with planning you can be sure everything gets to the best ending and not just some ending
you can make sure all the scenes are the best to get you to that ending
and you can be sure they all fit properly without endless rewriting to get the story arc right

the only difference in the approaches is when you focus on the story and when you focus on the writing
and by focusing your attention at one of teh 5 levels of editing you can do that faster better easier with less wasted effort

you may know what you like doing
and it may even be best for you
but is that approach even good for most writers
would you really want to teach that to new writers
if so HOW would you teach it at all other than trial and error socratic method
do you think they would be successful if they used that process

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ostarella
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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby ostarella » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:36 pm

[quote="mike m."]
but it helps do it faster better easier [/quote]


No, it doesn't. It makes it boring and futile for those who write intuitively.


[quote="mike m."]
and as i said you could be iterating as you fill in details if you need to do that to help your creativity flow easier
...
then advance to wordsmithing the entire mss at a lower level of editing
finally focus on the SPAG at the last level of editing [/quote]


I would go mad trying to do all that when I'm perfectly capable of getting it down the way I want it the first time, editing as I go so it fits. The only thing that does come at the end is the polishing - SpAG, typos, etc, which is typically very quick since I've done most of that along the way as well.


[quote="mike m."]
it is so much easier to put those options in while planning at a high level
than to do it after you have a lot of verbiage written already [/quote]


It's so much easier to get things right as they happen than to plan everything out and then have to re-write the plan to fit what actually happens on paper. I can't begin to tell you how many planners have said, straight out, that the end story is nothing like the outline.


[quote="mike m."]
you may know what you like doing
and it may even be best for you
but is that approach even good for most writers
would you really want to teach that to new writers
if so HOW would you teach it at all other than trial and error socratic method
do you think they would be successful if they used that process[/quote]


I would teach it exactly the way I was taught. "Tell me a story.". And then "Tell me another story.". And each time, work with the student to see what worked and what didn't. Then "Tell me another story.".

You seem to be operating under the assumption that learning to write intuitively is a one-time-now-you've-got-it thing. It's not. It's much the same as we say if you want to write you have to read. Over time, you absorb things, learning and recognizing what works, when things should happen, how to phrase for maximum effect - but it comes from doing. Over and over. Teaching organic writing is simply letting people experiment, makes mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and then do it again. It means the teacher has to be flexible and imaginative, because otherwise that teacher cannot teach the student.

Very few writers are able to write a good story the first time out. We see 'headlines' about first novels being published - but that's misleading. Most of the time, that "first" novel is, in reality, the first novel they've submitted for publication, but definitely not the first novel they've ever written. And they've typically spent years writing to get to that point.

Outlining/planning/organizing will not make the process easier if it bores the writer to death. It just means they won't write. Organic writing will not make the process easier if the writer gets all jumbled up and confused. It just means they won't write. The trick is allowing people to experiment and find the process that means they will write and will keep writing.

mike m.
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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby mike m. » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:09 pm

[quote="mike m."][quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]

you need to stop outlining

start planning and organising
use your creativity and reveals to lay out a good story that makes sense and moves forward logically[/quote]
~~~~~~~~~

Planning and organizing do not have to happen before the story gets written. For many writers, logic and understanding of what has already happened dictates what the next move will be; coupled with the ability to consider options at the moment, and which can be worked into the better story, this negates any necessity for outlines or pre-planning, while the organizing in merely a matter of knowing what's already happened and not writing in opposition to that.

It should be understood that not everyone on the forum is a newbie writer figuring out what method to try. Many of us have been writing for years and know precisely what works best for us. I don't tell my friends who outline/plan/organize that they're doing it wrong. They know what makes it happen for them, and they know what makes it happen for me. The point is to get a well-written finished ms, and that's what we do, no matter what the method.[/quote]
======

it doesnt have to
but it helps do it faster better easier

and as i said you could be iterating as you fill in details if you need to do that to help your creativity flow easier
big picture first
some draft sceness
helps put more details into the 'outline'
more draft
repeat until all done
where the first draft is perfect for the story arc with all the scenes needed in the right sequence with no omissions or extraneous useless ones
then focus on fully writing each scene the best possible

then advance to wordsmithing the entire mss at a lower level of editing
finally focus on the SPAG at the last level of editing

it is so much easier to put those options in while planning at a high level
than to do it after you have a lot of verbiage written already
you can see the big picture clearer without all the details in the way
you can reorganise the sequence easier with 3x5 cards than with pages of electrons on a pc

there is more to making the story better than not merely opposing what came earlier
with planning you can be sure everything gets to the best ending and not just some ending
you can make sure all the scenes are the best to get you to that ending
and you can be sure they all fit properly without endless rewriting to get the story arc right

the only difference in the approaches is when you focus on the story and when you focus on the writing
and by focusing your attention at one of teh 5 levels of editing you can do that faster better easier with less wasted effort

you may know what you like doing
and it may even be best for you
but is that approach even good for most writers
would you really want to teach that to new writers
if so HOW would you teach it at all other than trial and error socratic method
do you think they would be successful if they used that process[/quote]


============

there is nothing boring about planning organising and then writing
all the creativity occurs at each level where you can focus it for the best result

you seem to be impatient to know what the story is
and have to start finding out the long slow way

when you plan and organise you get a better story faster easier and with no boredom

now if you get bored writing when you already know what the scene is supposed to be
then i can understand that if you hate writing but love creating the story

but if so then why write so much to discover the story
when you could do that without any writing at all

your logic and methods totally confuse me
especially the logic

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Noizchild
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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby Noizchild » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:45 pm

This too will be locked.
You ask me what I thought about
Before we were lovers.
The answer is easy.
Before I met you
I didn't have anything to think about.

-- From "The Love Poems of Marichiko"

mike m.
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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby mike m. » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:09 pm

[quote="Noizchild"]This too will be locked.[/quote]
======

could be

shame when we are having a civil discussion
that someone who does not care about the topic would censor it from continuing

rob-lost
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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby rob-lost » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:41 pm

==use your creativity and reveals to lay out a good story that makes sense and moves forward logically==
@mike m:
You haven't the least bit of authority to "teach" people about fiction writing. You don't listen. You don't converse. You denigrate, belittle, deny. You talk AT people, not with them.

Have you ever read Aldous Huxley's _Brave New World_? AE Van Vogt and _The World of Null A? How about Philip K Dick and "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Each of these works turns logic on it ear in one way or another.

Arthur C Clarke was writing about communications satellites before Sputnik was even built. Isaac Asimov gave us the Three Laws of Robotics while Fred Saberhagen envisioned planet-sized machines bent on the destruction of all life. HG Wells and his Captain Nemo powered a submarine with atomic energy before we were even sure such powered could be harnessed. Mary Shelly broke down the barriers between life and death with her Frankenstein monster. Ray Bradbury gave us The Illustrated Man to take us on interesting and wonderful adventures. HP Lovecraft gave us Cthulu and The Old Gods, and The Necronomicon.

I know that you're going to ignore all that. Because fiction, in your world, is irrelevant, and does not affect minds.

I sure am glad that I don't live in your world.
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ostarella
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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby ostarella » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:41 pm

[quote="mike m."] there is nothing boring about planning organising and then writing all the creativity occurs at each level where you can focus it for the best result[/quote]


There is definitely something boring about planning and organizing before writing the story - for those who don't like doing it. There's a reason they don't like doing it - because it's boring.


[quote="mike m."] you seem to be impatient to know what the story is and have to start finding out the long slow way
when you plan and organise you get a better story faster easier and with no boredom[/quote]


I'm not impatient to know what the story is. I want to explore the story and find out what happens. And no, I do not get "a better story faster easier and with no boredom" - I've already told you that it's not faster or easier and it's boring for a lot of writers. That's why they don't do it.


[quote="mike m."] now if you get bored writing when you already know what the scene is supposed to be then i can understand that if you hate writing but love creating the story but if so then why write so much to discover the story when you could do that without any writing at all [/quote]


Man, did you get that wrong! I don't hate writing. Whatever gave you that idea? I love writing and I love discovering the story as I write. What bores me - besides these endless discussions about facts not in evidence - is making a bunch of notes about a story I'd rather just write.


[quote="mike m."] your logic and methods totally confuse me especially the logic[/quote]


Seems a lot of things about writers and writing confuse you. Maybe you should try actually reading for comprehension while in these discussions instead of making assumptions that will buoy your opinion.

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Re: WD university - how to outline

Postby pls » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:38 am

>>shame when we are having a civil discussion
that someone who does not care about the topic would censor it from continuing

It's a shame that you seem to prefer arguing and assaulting those who disagree with your viewpoints, mike, rather than to continue a "civil discussion", which you seem unable to discern between argument and discussion. When you get away from "write better, get published" or deliberately flout my directives, the topic gets locked. And, yes, I recognize that it takes two to argue or discuss. You aren't 100 to blame here, mike. Locked.
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