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school curricula - how to teach writing : Tips and Advice • Writing Forum | WritersDigest.com

school curricula - how to teach writing

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plughmann
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school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby plughmann » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:27 pm

I taught STEM classes at 2 major unis , and a minor one. I observed that students do not know *HOW* to write.
They are mostly competent with vocabulary, spelling , and writing a basic sentence. But putting together even a short paper is a mystery to them.
Man fail to do it well, others brute force it with all nighters and by using way too much time that could have been better used on studying or other tasks.

Part of the problem is that many do not think logically when it comes to writing although they can solve technical problems very well.
Even at the uni level the English dept did not teach HOW to write. They pushed literature which was worthless to the students. They pushed grammar and other topics they were sufficiently competent with already. What English depts dont teach is HOW to write a paper.

The elhi curricula now uses a template they give to write a one page essay.
That is a good start to help students organise their thoughts and write something larger than a sentence.
But we cant provide a template for everything everybody will need to write. Certainly not at the uni level as well as after they graduate.
With the dumbing down of public schools I dont expect them to do much more wrt writing. It will have to happen at the CC and uni level.

So the question we have is: HOW to we teach students HOW to write.

Historically it has been done using a Socratic method. They force students to write. They correct their grammar and spelling mistakes. Then expect them to have an epiphany and become writers. Well that was a big fail. They become good on avoiding comma splices but they never learn HOW to write.

The washpost recently had a pedagogical article on the problem where it was suggested that instead of writing in class for 50 minutes without any preparation that the students be given a longer paper to write. And then have them turn in what they have done weekly for assessment and advice so they learn to prepare and plan to write a longer paper that requires a method which facilitates doing it faster better easier.

The thing that was missing from that article, is what sort of guidance would work well. Clearly planning and preparation considering a number of issues and organising the available material, researching missing items, would be useful. Is there something better to try? Should other methods be included with that process?

So, HOW would you teach HOW to write. What would be an outline of a potential curriculum for a class on HOW to write at the uni level for juniors and above?

Even suggestions for just stray topics to include are useful, if you can't suggest the full syllabus entries.

If you cant suggest anything prescriptive, then even problems or issues you have with your writing, which need to be addressed by schools, could help us develop a way to teach HOW to write.

What problems do you have writing? Is there anything you do that works for you?
What would be your approach to HOW to teach HOW to write?

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robjvargas
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby robjvargas » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:31 pm

You really think people are going to fall for this again, william?

I want to have this discussion. But you completely and utterly ignored all citations references, and any input from others the multiple times you've started this in the past.

You haven't acknowledged any thoughts or processes other than your own preconceptions and prejudices about "pantsing verus outlining." You've characterized every single disagreement as a personal affront to you. Every. Single. One.

Why should anyone trust you to have a different discussion this time around? Because you've (once again) sock-puppeted your way past WD's broken ban system and have a different ID?

No. No one owes you any benefit of any doubt. Because there is none. You've got to EARN that trust if you want others to converse with you. And you've got to find your own damned site if you want to have a blog where you post without being challenged.
Slowly putting together a "replacement" forum at http://writerswriting.proboards.com.

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plughmann
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby plughmann » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:57 pm

[quote="robjvargas"]You really think people are going to fall for this again, william?

I want to have this discussion. But you completely and utterly ignored all citations references, and any input from others the multiple times you've started this in the past.

You haven't acknowledged any thoughts or processes other than your own preconceptions and prejudices about "pantsing verus outlining." You've characterized every single disagreement as a personal affront to you. Every. Single. One.

Why should anyone trust you to have a different discussion this time around? Because you've (once again) sock-puppeted your way past WD's broken ban system and have a different ID?

No. No one owes you any benefit of any doubt. Because there is none. You've got to EARN that trust if you want others to converse with you. And you've got to find your own damned site if you want to have a blog where you post without being challenged.[/quote]


Fall for what?

I am looking for information not hostile attacks from all y'all that are anti planning.

If you can explain how your method works then I am interested. Else please dont hijack the thread and be a troublemaker.

I have never ignored facts. I followed up on two pantsing books that did not explain jack. One of them actually was for planning but refused to call it that.
Nobody has explained HOW your methods work. Certainly not even to a high level outline of what would need to be taught, let alone any details other then nike and edit as you go and magically it will happen.

I flat out dont trust you so whether you trust me or not is irrelevant. On your site you banned a person because you didnt agree with them. PLS is not here to be your hit man any longer. So you should start being more positive before you get banned.

What matters is whether you all make personal attacks and denigrate comments others make that you dont agree with which is your usual pattern.
Personal attacks , insults, and blatant disrespect will be reported now.

Now if you have something useful to say about the questions raised then please post them. Otherwise take a hike and dont screw up another thread with your nonsense.

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ostarella
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby ostarella » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:34 pm

We've had this discussion before and people have given ideas which you ignored because they didn't mesh your preconceptions. No point repeating them any more than there's any point trying to explain how pantsers work because you ignore those as well and then claim no one explained anything.

plughmann
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby plughmann » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:44 pm

[quote="ostarella"]We've had this discussion before and people have given ideas which you ignored because they didn't mesh your preconceptions. No point repeating them any more than there's any point trying to explain how pantsers work because you ignore those as well and then claim no one explained anything.[/quote]

Good because you never explained HOW you did anything. Just asserted it.

You and the robs go play somewhere and maybe some adults will add some useful info to this attempt at finding out HOW to write and HOW to teach HOW to write.

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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby updog » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:06 pm

I've been following this "discussion" for months now, and I still don't understand the question.
"Is it weird in here, or is it just me?" ~ Steven Wright



plughmann
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby plughmann » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:52 pm

[quote="updog"]I've been following this "discussion" for months now, and I still don't understand the question.[/quote]

I dont know how much clearer the question could be.

Students dont know how to write.
The current methods used by elhi schools, and unis too, are a big fail.

[/b /u /i] SO HOW would you teach them HOW to write? [/i /u /b]

That is as clear as I can write the question.
What would you include in the syllabus for the teaching of HOW to write.
They dont need grammar or low level help.
They need something like development editing or an alternative at a higher level.

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ostarella
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby ostarella » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:03 pm

He asked the same question under a former incarnation. I gave him a lengthy answer but apparently it went in one ear and out the other, as usual.

He's just looking for someone to say something - anything - that he can disagree with and then insult them for bothering to respond.

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updog
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby updog » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:57 am

[quote="updog"]I've been following this "discussion" for months now, and I still don't understand the question.[/quote]

I dont know how much clearer the question could be.

Students dont know how to write.
The current methods used by elhi schools, and unis too, are a big fail.[/quote]

Odd. The students in my life know how to write.

[quote="plughmann"][/b /u /i] SO HOW would you teach them HOW to write? [/i /u /b]

That is as clear as I can write the question.
What would you include in the syllabus for the teaching of HOW to write.
They dont need grammar or low level help.
They need something like development editing or an alternative at a higher level.[/quote]

Seriously, how to write WHAT? A sentence? A letter to the editor? A book review? An essay? A novel? I need more from you than just a vague "HOW to write" before I can give an answer of any substance.
"Is it weird in here, or is it just me?" ~ Steven Wright



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robjvargas
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Re: school curricula - how to teach writing

Postby robjvargas » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:40 am

[quote="plughmann"]
Fall for what?

I am looking for information not hostile attacks from all y'all that are anti planning.[/quote]
Can't say I'd blame WD for editing this but... poop unicorns and rainbows. On several levels.

1) you're NOT looking for information. You're looking for attention. ANY attention. It shows in the way you are fundamentally incapable of accepting an answer you don't like.
2) There's no such thing as "anti planning." You made that up because no one here accepts your definition of planning when it comes to how each of us write. In truth, NO ONE has said there's anything wrong with planning. I've even told you multiple times that it's not 100.000% one or the other for me. And you've ignored it several times.

I'm going to stop there on this sub-topic. It's not like you're going to pay attention anyway.

[quote="plughmann"]If you can explain how your method works then I am interested. Else please dont hijack the thread and be a troublemaker.[/quote]
I have. Several times. So have others. And you've refused to discuss it. Under ALL of your ID's. Your prejudices and biases float to the top like dross. And they form a hard crust over any possibility of good metal beneath. This isn't a thread at all. Just like it wasn't the half a dozen other times you tried this crap.

[quote="plughmann"]I have never ignored facts. I followed up on two pantsing books that did not explain jack. One of them actually was for planning but refused to call it that.[/quote]
And now with the dishonesty. I didn't say facts. I said citations, references, and input from others.
[quote="plughmann"]Nobody has explained HOW your methods work. Certainly not even to a high level outline of what would need to be taught, let alone any details other then nike and edit as you go and magically it will happen. [/quote]
More lies. You were given links to successful authors who say they write by the seat of their pants. You were given responses by authors here who say they do it as well.

[quote="plughmann"]I flat out dont trust you so whether you trust me or not is irrelevant. On your site you banned a person because you didnt agree with them. PLS is not here to be your hit man any longer. So you should start being more positive before you get banned. [/quote]
You know you've effectively just admitted to being william, right? You really SHOULD listen to your own words before you go willy-nilly tossing them at others.

You are banned because you are a troll and a sock-puppet. Do you really think that attacking a respected man who recently passed away is a way to induce discussion? I sure don't. And to me, that's yet another confirmation of you being a troll.

[quote="plughmann"]What matters is whether you all make personal attacks and denigrate comments others make that you dont agree with which is your usual pattern.
Personal attacks , insults, and blatant disrespect will be reported now.

Now if you have something useful to say about the questions raised then please post them. Otherwise take a hike and dont screw up another thread with your nonsense.[/quote]
Again, pay attention to your own words. You are as badly in need of listening to them as anyone.
Slowly putting together a "replacement" forum at http://writerswriting.proboards.com.

It's still under construction, but come take a look.

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