avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapters

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mike m.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:12 am

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]i take a realistic POV based on what i see others do or fail to do
and my own personal experience where pantsing was a total fail for fiction and business writing

i abandoned my first attempt at a novel during my time at the uni
i failed at business writing for years until i was forced to find a method that worked
and organising was the key to my being able to write at all

but after i learned that planning and organising were NECESSARY to succeed
i did VERY well at writing and even had a fully writing oriented job for a few years
while all the others always required a significant amount to document what was done technically[/quote]

Yes - you had to find the method that worked for you. Why are you so dead set against others finding the method that works for them? Why do you insist that others be forced to use a method that will make them fail at writing fiction in the same way you failed at business writing? Because that's exactly what you have been doing from Day One - telling people they must do things your way or they will fail, when, for many, many writers, your way is the way to failure for them. Do you really not see that?[/quote]
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there you go lying again

i am not against that

what i do want to find is a general solution that can be taught in schools to help people writer faster better easier cheaper
i have no idea how to teach pantsing
that was the implicit method they taught us by default by not teaching anything about writing at all
and only focusing on grammar

i am not telling anybody to do anything
what i am saying is what i observed that works and what failed
and others can feel free to listen to the voice of experience or decide to blaze their own trail in search of a method that actually works for them

and i will have a textbook to use to go along with my advice
do you have anything that can be used to teach a class of new people HOW to write ?

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ostarella
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:40 am

So your main complaint is that you can't figure out how to teach organic writing? And/or that you failed at it so it's the fault of that system?

And believe me, if all they taught you about writing was grammar, then they weren't teaching any method. They were giving you the base for learning how to write. And you may be the voice of experience for nonfiction - but you've only written a couple piece of fiction. That's baby steps, not a "voice of experience".

Nobody has a problem if you want to say you tried organic writing and it didn't work for you. That's vastly different from denigrating the method in its entirety.

But why do I waste my breath? Only because I don't want any newbies thinking that there's only one way to write.

rob-lost
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby rob-lost » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:35 am

==how do you avoid writing yourself into a dead end canyon, or even a cul de sac
so you dont have to toss a lot of work or at best do significant revisions on it

it can happen to anyone without a complete plan and a beat sheet of scenes to use as a roadmap==
The military has two sayings along this line. First: Piss Poor Planning Prevents Proper Performance. It's called the 5P Principle (since the military doesn't officially acknowledge the first P).

And, secondly: No plan survives implementation.

Both of them, applied here, say the same thing. That even plans and outlines can lead to dead ends and wild revisions.

Planning out a story that does not work just leads to a well-planned story that does not work.
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mike m.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:01 am

[quote="rob-lost"]==how do you avoid writing yourself into a dead end canyon, or even a cul de sac
so you dont have to toss a lot of work or at best do significant revisions on it

it can happen to anyone without a complete plan and a beat sheet of scenes to use as a roadmap==
The military has two sayings along this line. First: Piss Poor Planning Prevents Proper Performance. It's called the 5P Principle (since the military doesn't officially acknowledge the first P).

And, secondly: No plan survives implementation.

Both of them, applied here, say the same thing. That even plans and outlines can lead to dead ends and wild revisions.

Planning out a story that does not work just leads to a well-planned story that does not work.[/quote]
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details of plans change

but it is easier to revise your 'outline' whatever that is
when it is in a high level easy to see at a glance format
than it is to revise after you wrote a lot of verbiage
that you will either throw away or revise a lot

and you can see if there are any dead ends in order to avoid them when you plan and organise first
that is the entire point of planning
to ensure that the structure is sound before you start filling in details

so in the sense you objected to, planning does NOT fail

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ostarella
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:43 am

This is why I revise/edit/rewrite as I go, so I don't have a big mess to clean up later. When I come to a fork in the road, I consider which route seems most interesting, and looks like it will fit in with what I've already written. That's the route I take. It may not be the easiest route, but it sure can be interesting. But that's the thing I love about writing - the challenge of making it all work together.

Some people, when they occasionally paint themselves into that proverbial corner, will say, "Screw it", walk across the wet paint and start over. Others hook their belt over the chandelier and swing out, coming back later to finish the job. Still others kick a hole in the wall, reach back to finish painting the floor, put a nice door where the hole was, and set about exploring the world beyond that door. There's a lot of fascinating writing beyond that door.

mike m.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:44 pm

[quote="ostarella"]This is why I revise/edit/rewrite as I go, so I don't have a big mess to clean up later. When I come to a fork in the road, I consider which route seems most interesting, and looks like it will fit in with what I've already written. That's the route I take. It may not be the easiest route, but it sure can be interesting. But that's the thing I love about writing - the challenge of making it all work together.

Some people, when they occasionally paint themselves into that proverbial corner, will say, "Screw it", walk across the wet paint and start over. Others hook their belt over the chandelier and swing out, coming back later to finish the job. Still others kick a hole in the wall, reach back to finish painting the floor, put a nice door where the hole was, and set about exploring the world beyond that door. There's a lot of fascinating writing beyond that door.[/quote]
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rewriting as you go wont ensure that you wont have a mess
the problem is making that scene fit with future ones that are still unknown and will cause a big mess for many writers

the problem is that you cant consider how it will fit with future 'routes' because you dont know what they are and cant consider them

the TOTAL view point of planning lets you look at all those possible routes before writing
and plan the best way through that maze of possibilities to get to the best ending
so when you actually start to write you know you will get to the goal faster better easier without any rework
as well as having better scenes because you can focus on writing them instead of being distracted about the next waypoint fitting in

you admit enjoying the challenge of making it fit together so clearly you have different objectives with your writing
my objective is to finish an excellent piece as fast and as easy as possible using the least amount of time and effort

planners accept that challenge as something that is necessary but want to conquer it with the minimum amount of work
and we enjoy having finished our writing not the actual writing per se with any challenges or problems it gives us

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ostarella
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:00 pm

[quote="mike m."]rewriting as you go wont ensure that you wont have a mess[/quote]

I haven't found that to be true, but every writer is different and faces different problems when writing.

mike m.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:36 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]rewriting as you go wont ensure that you wont have a mess[/quote]

I haven't found that to be true, but every writer is different and faces different problems when writing.[/quote]
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there are a few genii like you and king that can pull it off

i would not want to try to teach that to a class of new writers and expect them to be proficient

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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:23 pm

[quote="mike m."]i would not want to try to teach that to a class of new writers and expect them to be proficient[/quote]

No teacher of new students in any field should expect them to be proficient. It takes practice, experimentation, failures, successes, and all of those, over and over and over again.

mike m.
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Re: avoiding dead ends that cause revision or tossing chapt

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:53 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]i would not want to try to teach that to a class of new writers and expect them to be proficient[/quote]

No teacher of new students in any field should expect them to be proficient. It takes practice, experimentation, failures, successes, and all of those, over and over and over again.[/quote]
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well proficient means competent at the level they are at for the material they were taught
of course they need practice
but first you learn scales before trying to play mozart

useful practice means being taught the HOW first
and that the HOW is a good method to use at all

experimentation is a total waste of effort for beginners
the socratic method is a big FAIL for teaching basics
experts might try that to build their skills
but beginners first need to learn the rules before they fool around experimenting by breaking the rules

repeating success builds competence
allowing failures makes it harder to learn well

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