The internet is crap for research...

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Fictional Chef
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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby Fictional Chef » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:33 pm

RobTheThird wrote:
> DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

> One of the things that has NOT changed about libraries is that they are not just
> repositories of books, magazines, etc. Librarians frequently have college degrees in
> something called library science.
> Don't write off libraries just yet. They are still valuable resources.
>
> Oh, wow, pun not intended.

I haven't written off libraries at all. In fact, I have two library books sitting on my desk as I type. All I said was that I (me, personally) don't know anyone who goes to the library anymore. Everyone relies on the internet. A quick Google search and "hard facts" appear like magic and become gospel to them. Personally, I find that not only sad, but shocking. No checking sources to verify anything. No consideration of the source at all! Just... yikes.

RobTheThird
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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby RobTheThird » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:56 pm

Fictional Chef wrote:
>
> I haven't written off libraries at all. In fact, I have two library books sitting on
> my desk as I type. All I said was that I (me, personally) don't know anyone who goes
> to the library anymore. Everyone relies on the internet. A quick Google search and
> "hard facts" appear like magic and become gospel to them. Personally, I
> find that not only sad, but shocking. No checking sources to verify anything. No
> consideration of the source at all! Just... yikes.

My local library has a parking lot that is full from opening to closing on the weekends, and pretty busy on quite a few weekdays.

But both your experience and mine are anecdotal evidence at best. That's why I didn't say that you were or are wrong.

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ostarella
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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby ostarella » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:58 pm

Fictional Chef wrote:
>
> Everyone relies on the internet. A quick Google search and
> "hard facts" appear like magic and become gospel to them. Personally, I
> find that not only sad, but shocking. No checking sources to verify anything. No
> consideration of the source at all! Just... yikes.

I actually saw a post on FB the other day that summed this up perfectly: People won't spend any time checking sources on "news" articles, but will spend 15 minutes finding out what kind of potato they are. :shock:

I will say, one of the great things about the internet is finding out where books one needs are located - sometimes at a library close by, and other times at least letting one know which library one can do the inter-library loan from. I am lucky in that our small town library (pop <2500) has the loan program set up, and there's also a larger public library in the city about 30 miles from here, not to mention several college libraries within easy driving distance (and yes, most of those are open to the public even if one can't actually take the books out).
"The trick of the fiction writer is the beautiful lie..." Thomas Fox Averill

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Fictional Chef
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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby Fictional Chef » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:23 pm

In my area, most of the people inside the library are elderly, homeless or there to use the free computers/internet. I used to worry about that until I realized that no amount of worrying is going to change anything. Whatever happens to the future of books, libraries, publishing, society, etc., is going to happen regardless. The only thing I can control is myself and the choices I make. Other people are responsible for their own choices.

I love the inter-library loan system. Not being a gadget person who is addicted to instant gratification, I have the patience to wait a week for a book to arrive.

LadySeshiiria
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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby LadySeshiiria » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:19 pm

RobTheThird wrote:
> Beware. Mozilla and Internet Explorer are not search engines. They are
> browsers. And Yahoo uses Google on the back end, so it's effectively the
> same thing.
>
> A search engine is a tool. Like any tool, it can be compromised by
> malicious activity. Search engines have always needed users to exercise
> some discretion.
Yeah I was typing fast and I have been spread thin and tired. First child. lol Anyway, yes, I made an error and I apologize for my misinformation.

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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby LadySeshiiria » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:09 pm

ostarella wrote:
> Yeah, I was going to say Firefox is not a search engine. I have Firefox for
> my browser and use Google for searches (I've tried bing and yahoo and a few
> others and I always end up coming back to Google). And again, the
> "inappropriate" results have more to do with your filters than
> with Google's search protocols.
>
> Search terms have to be specific. If you did a search on "war
> paint" (very general phrase), I can easily understand how you would
> get results on feminism (women's makeup used to be and maybe still is
> referred to as war paint, usually in a derogatory manner). It's kinda like
> going to the library and telling the librarian you want a novel. That's not
> going to help the librarian give you the specific results you're looking
> for. Telling the librarian you're looking for a murder mystery that takes
> place in England during WWII - now she's going to be able to give you
> better results. And if you've the author you're looking for - PAY DIRT
> IMMEDIATELY!
>
> When I'm doing a search, I typically start out with a minimum of 10-12
> words - minimum, mind you. If the results I get seemed skewed away from my
> subject, I drop or change the words that seem most likely to be causing the
> problem. And I look at the results that are close, and see what sorts of
> other search terms could get me even closer. It's not type in a couple
> words and get what you want - you really have to bear in mind just how many
> websites are out there with a lot of the same terms getting picked up. It's
> work. But so is going to a massive library to find the 2-3 books that will
> answer your questions. But I have found not only websites but people who
> have been of phenomenal help to me - so the time and effort was well worth
> it.

Yeah sorry long day with a toddler. First time mom. I apologize for the mistyping. I was in a hurry.
Yeah I was trying to narrow my search results down like I said to warpaint and culture(s) and search terms like what cultures have used warpaint and things like that but it was still yielding all of what I mentioned before. Despite the settings. i found out that my husband did put a mature filter on but stuff still gets through unfortunately. I guess with the settings I have to go through and individually block terms now. If I block say harem I lose harem pants in my search and fashion or history. :/ I tried it last night, and its okay but then I lose a lot too. So I guess I've just got to fiddle with things and find what it s going to work.

With what you are saying with the search terms is true because I am part of an art site called deviantart and it uses tags to search artwork. A lot of tag abuse is common these days in order to get views. (NSFW is an example.) If artists are doing it to make money, then sites are undoubtedly doing it as well. Makes sense, though I do use sentences when I search I try to use short ones that I think would be clear and concise. Maybe I'm not being concise enough.

Fictional Chef wrote:
> In my area, most of the people inside the library are elderly, homeless or there
> to use the free computers/internet. I used to worry about that until I realized
> that no amount of worrying is going to change anything. Whatever happens to the
> future of books, libraries, publishing, society, etc., is going to happen regardless.
> The only thing I can control is myself and the choices I make. Other people are
> responsible for their own choices.
>
> I love the inter-library loan system. Not being a gadget person who is addicted
> to instant gratification, I have the patience to wait a week for a book to arrive.

Yeah I have no issue with waiting either. I'm not a gadget person either. I don't use my phone that much I'm traditional with messaging on a computer and don't text on a phone often. I'd rather talk to someone live. lol My problem is that things like this are just not available because of the state of our town. I live in a bankrupt town the state of education here is deplorable. Everything is just bad. I just need to move but can't afford to at the moment.

RobTheThird wrote:
> Fictional Chef wrote:
> >
> > I haven't written off libraries at all. In fact, I have two library books sitting
> on
> > my desk as I type. All I said was that I (me, personally) don't know anyone who
> goes
> > to the library anymore. Everyone relies on the internet. A quick Google search
> and
> > "hard facts" appear like magic and become gospel to them. Personally, I
> > find that not only sad, but shocking. No checking sources to verify anything.
> No
> > consideration of the source at all! Just... yikes.
>
> My local library has a parking lot that is full from opening to closing on the weekends,
> and pretty busy on quite a few weekdays.
>
> But both your experience and mine are anecdotal evidence at best. That's why I didn't
> say that you were or are wrong.

Yeah you and I both find that alarming. We have people out there that believe the holocaust never happened... :/ Wikipedia is a joke because anyone can alter information they want to by just logging in and so many people rely on it. Its okay, but not gospel. In college the teachers even told the students they wouldn't except resources from Wikipedia anymore. I thought that was refreshing. Anyway they said it was to force students to research using the library and to learn to properly cite facts. I think that is really cool.

Ah thank you, yeah my library is struggling for funding. You know how you can request a book through the library and they may buy it on budget? Ours got its budget cut last year. So they were not able to buy new books, which was sad. They had to take book donations.

Fictional Chef wrote:
> RobTheThird wrote:
> > DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!
>
> > One of the things that has NOT changed about libraries is that they are not just
> > repositories of books, magazines, etc. Librarians frequently have college degrees
> in
> > something called library science.
> > Don't write off libraries just yet. They are still valuable resources.
> >
> > Oh, wow, pun not intended.
>
> I haven't written off libraries at all. In fact, I have two library books sitting
> on my desk as I type. All I said was that I (me, personally) don't know anyone
> who goes to the library anymore. Everyone relies on the internet. A quick Google
> search and "hard facts" appear like magic and become gospel to them. Personally,
> I find that not only sad, but shocking. No checking sources to verify anything.
> No consideration of the source at all! Just... yikes.

Yeah I haven't written off our library. I have been using it to teach our son to read and have him enrolled in their reading program which doesn't cost money. 1000 book before kindergarten. If he reads or I read that many before he goes to school he gets a picture on the wall there and a sticker and a sucker. I know its not much but its good to teach kids to read. I understood where you were coming from. I don't really see millennials in there often. I am one too. I go every week with our kid to make it a point to not stick his face in the screen and spend time with family. I think too much screen time is resulting in all this bad behavior, lack of accountability, stupidity or ignorance, and mental health problems like anxiety and depression. Not to mention how many people these days have good communication skills. I'm not going to pretend I'm superior or anything because I'm not and I know for a fact I have terrible communication skills. I've been learning to make it more effective through my writing. I've been reading text books on language and writing and trying to discipline myself to write better online and not use short text like lol omh or imo crap you see people do. I guess what I'm saying is I'm trying to force myself to a higher standard. Yeah it would seem the generation tech relies too much on the information provided to them via phone or screen. What would happen if there was a mass tech crisis. lol I think some of these people would literally commit suicide. I'll be out fishing.

RobTheThird wrote:
> > I don't know anyone else who still goes to an actual library to do research unless
> they need to look through archived local newspapers.
>
> DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!
>
> One of the things that has NOT changed about libraries is that they are not just
> repositories of books, magazines, etc. Librarians frequently have college degrees
> in something called library science. That's not just a degree in the Dewey Decimal
> System, either. For as long as libraries have existed, librarians have also been
> taught, and learned, the science...
>
> :::Drum roll, please:::
>
> Searching.
>
> That's right. One of the tasks librarians train in is finding out how to find out
> stuff. If you learn to work with them, they can be the ultimate search engine of
> search engines, both online and offline.
>
> I gained SO MUCH respect for librarians way back in High School when I made the mistake
> of writing my senior English paper on T.S. Eliot and The Waste Land. They warned
> me right away that the information was hard to find, but voluminous once it began
> coming in. One of the books they found for me was from Oxford University. Like
> ENGLAND! They actually had it shipped over. I couldn't leave the library with
> it, but even though I came to realize why my English teacher had me rethink it for
> a day, it reawakened my love for language. And, like I said, ignited a respect
> for librarians.
>
> Remember, some of those professional journals out there charge hundreds of dollars
> to reprint their articles, but libraries and networks of libraries (sometimes) get
> low or no cost access to those journals.
>
> Don't write off libraries just yet. They are still valuable resources.
>
> Oh, wow, pun not intended.

Hmm. I didn't know that. Maybe its like that at normal funded libraries? I really need to get out of this town. I looked because they were hiring through the town's site, where looking for no experience required for hire. High school degree was literally the highest education and it was for the whole job. Our fire museum is hiring for a coordinator but I don't know why because its fallen into disrepair and no one visits it. The coordinator wouldn't be getting paid a steady check it would only be if people paid for tour and from the last guy I talked to in the 15 years he's run it he's maybe had a family go through there once a year if that. I hope that will give everyone here some perspective on how bad this town is. This is why I am hoping to reach out and talk with others and see if I can't exhaust all ideas. Or learn better online tactics. I may have to put off the crucial aspects of my story for a while till I can move to another city or state altogether.

I remember when libraries used to be like how you described them. I miss that. We had some cool proactive people, and now or city is just stupidly placing people into whatever position open. Like with our schools, no education or college necessary apparently I could walk in and start teaching. Our schools are getting a bad reputation out here too. A lot of people are busing their kids to private schools or sending them out of town. Its gotten so bad new schools are cropping up in our town claiming to be better than the public education system and we have been having nothing but problems with child sex abuse scandals and teacher literally not doing their jobs. When I was in high school 3 teachers got busted for sex abuse crimes and they were all women. Sad thing is no one here cares enough to really do anything about it...

I'm going to be very careful when choosing a place to live. We have our eye on another area and we are going up to visit family this month and while we are there we are going to be check the schools out, the library, and the colleges. I have to have a good place for our son to grow up.

That is super cool that they shipped over that book for you. I hope when I move I can have neat experiences like that. I will be looking forward to it.

Fictional Chef wrote:
> I understand your frustration with internet search results. As each days passes,
> the internet seems to be less of a place for information and more about marketing
> and making money with things like search engine optimization.
>
> The good news is, other than having fewer books to choose from at your local library,
> you have the same information available to you there that I do here in the big city.
> It's all online. I don't know anyone else who still goes to an actual library
> to do research unless they need to look through archived local newspapers. It really
> is a matter of learning from your unproductive searches to refine them into successful
> ones. When I start researching something new, I always seem to start with the useless
> results. Similar terminology can apply to different subjects. (Grrr...) Generic
> questions and phrases have taught me that! But, once I learn a few things about
> my intended subject, I learn more of the language used by people involved. That's
> what leads to successful results for me.

Do you mean the library has a search engine? I know the college does which is an hour away. If that's what your talking about.

LadySeshiiria
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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby LadySeshiiria » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:45 pm

Hurray, for a small success at the local library. I found a few books on some topics I needed to research about. Its a small success though. All of them happen to be rated for juniors grades 4-6 or 6-12. Better than nothing though, am I right? It'll have to do. At least I can narrow search terms through them.

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Re: The internet is crap for research...

Postby MikePhillip » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:31 pm

LadySeshiiria wrote:
> ostarella wrote:
> > If you can't find what you need online, search for the book(s) at other
> > libraries - many times you can do an inter-library loan, where the book is
> > sent to your town's library for you. I do a lot of online searches/research
> > but I confess I've never heard of "google scholar" - sounds like
> > I'm not missing much.
>
> Yeah like google search result people pay to have their stuff put in the front. Some
> of it is pay access as well. Most of it is garbage in my opinion. Google isn't good
> for unbiased research. Like warpaint and cultures for example yields music, Broadway,
> feminism (Mostly) , and maybe a little here or there on Native American, or African.
> Sometimes I'll come across cosplay stuff as well. Its like about 2009 2010 everything
> became so well I can overwhelming...
>
> Last night I was researching pre-muslim fashions (for my desert people) looking at
> the Arab culture and got Persian, Egyptian, Turkish, India Indian, Japanese, smutty
> spam, modern clothing, anime, and a bunch of other unrelated stuff. So frustrating...
> I have a lot of experience in fashion history, mostly European period clothing, and
> actual sewing and I know a lot of cultures had cross influences but this had to be
> haphazard tagging in the search results...
>
> My library unfortunately doesn't offer inter-library loans T.T (It sucks living in a
> back water sometimes...)
> Is there anything else I can do? I don't have a lot of money for books or access to
> places like a barnes and noble. I've got a walmart though lol. I'm desperate at this
> point.


Mind if I disagree with the thread topic? My experience has been the opposite, and I've been searching the net for stuff for quite a few years. Google searches for 'Pre-Muslim arab fashion' returned "about 822,000 results", and for 'Arab pre-Muslim fashion' came back with "About 5,370,000 results". Putting the search term within quotation marks ("Pre-Muslim arab fashion") brings back fewer results, but still many, and they appear to be more appropriate to what OP is looking for. I think.

https://www.quora.com/What-did-people-wear-in-pre-islamic-arabia was the second result returned and contains interesting text as well as images of what both men and women were wearing "back in the day".

Patience is the key. One has to dig in to find appropriate information, but it's there; just takes time to wade through the unrelated articles to find the gems.

Hope that helps a bit.

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