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Re: Proposing self-published books to agents- Yes or no?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:43 pm
by williamadams
marketing is not gaming the system

it is a major part of the system
why write if nobody reads

and like that old english guy said
only a fool writes except to make money
and that means you need good marketing

looks like we found another new bug in the new forum system
colors dont work any more when you have to disable bbc codes to get by the insufficient characters message to post

Speaking as a writer who focused on internet marketing, personally, self-publishing is a glorified medium that isn't all that.

The success stories you hear of people who made a ton of money self-publishing are either:

1) Lucky, to which they never knew what they were doing.
[/color=#00BF00]It is a long tailed phenomenon and luck is a factor but skill and preparation and marketing help make your own luck [/color]

2) Pumping in a ton of advertising money from their own pockets, which they won't reveal.
[/color=#FF0040]Because that never happened except for a politician or group pushing a point of view[/color]

3) Gaming the entire system i.e. focusing on the marketing rather than writing.
[/color=#FF00BF]No gaming at all. you need both product and demand and marketing to succeed[/color]

This is when so-called writers talk about writing when in actual fact they outsource a ghostwriter for cheap.
[/color=#FF4040]that is the information selling biz and totally different from most self publishing which is bad novels and a few NF how to books [/color]

Or, they are only writing books or creating courses teaching others how to self-publish, and telling them why you should pay them to do so.
[/color=#FF0000]only a few people doing that successfully
dan poynter was the original guru of SP. Ross was a close second later on. most of the others not so useful[/color]

All in all, self-publishing isn't magic or a convenient method to gain a successful book. Publishing anything on your own is easy. For it to be a hit requires a ton of work.
[/color=#FF0000]self publishing has many advantages. no delay. you are in control. you keep all the profits.
publishing is easy. good publishing is hard work just like writing a good book. to be a hit requires luck not work although a lack of work will make it fail. [/color]

Re: Proposing self-published books to agents- Yes or no?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:40 pm
by ostarella
and many wont give advances if the author does not insist

but they do not spend a lot of money on promoting books from anyone but the big names

i know about trade publishing thank you
they stay in biz by making it big on rowling and patterson so they can afford to gamble with lesser writers
this is a somewhat long tailed phenomenon

they keep going by the megahits taking up the slack

their marketing is only generic
salesmen go out with the new list to place books in stores from the catalog not to sell your book
and they are not going to advertise or promote your book any other way than that
you are not going on tour to do book signings unless you arrange it and pay for it yourself[/quote]

Okay. Publishers do NOT depend on the "big names" to keep them going OR to gamble on "lesser" writers. What they rely on are the mid-list authors - those who keep putting out books that bring in steady sales. They don't generally produce best-sellers (whatever those are any more) but they produce continually. And publishers love seeing stuff from NEW writers because guess what? Nobody Lives Forever - and even fantastic writers quit writing.

And book signings? Where you sit in a store and talk to a couple dozen people who may or may not purchase your book or already have so you're not making a new sale from them anyway and, btw, there are thousands of bookstores that you will never get to because there isn't that much time in the day unless you quit writing. It's like home sellers who whine because their agent isn't holding an open house. Guess what? Open houses very seldom, if ever, sell THAT house. At best, it's advertising for the agency, not the house. At worst, it's a waste of everybody's time. Publishers' marketing departments get your book ready, get it to the book distributors, who get them to the book sellers and hopefully get them excited enough about your book to put it on display where the readers do what they love to do: browse that book store looking for new books and new authors.

One last note: Publishers give advances if the author's agent does their job. They aren't typically large advances, but only very small publishers might not give any.

So no, you really don't know how publishing works as well as you think you do. At least not in the world of fiction.

Re: Proposing self-published books to agents- Yes or no?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:24 am
by williamadams

i really do know how publishing works even if you dont agree with the truth when i tell it
and i know the financial end of how it works no matter how many times you deny it

the world is different from 50 years ago and you need to get up to date with your facts
most books barely break even
many lose money
it is the big megahits that keep the tradpubs going

not all authors have agents
not all agents do their job as well as authors would like

many publishers do not volounteer advances
in the words of one when asked by another one at lunch about how much they offer
"often they (authors) dont ASK for an advance"

getting a big advance may look nice
but if your book does not sell big they wont print another one from that author


bookstores are a lousy place to sell books
- dan poynter
and HE knew publishing


you will be lucky if your book gets into stores spine out
what are the chances somebody will be browsing that category and see your book and even pull it out to look at it

you need reviews as well as self promotion to generate sales
and that takes time
too much time for bookstores to wait
in a few weeks they will return your book to the publisher
who will remainder them
and somebody might buy one at the dollar store


sorry but
i do know the publishing biz
no matter how much you deny it

Re: Proposing self-published books to agents- Yes or no?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:34 am
by ostarella
Okay. You know what you know - I know what publishing professionals (agents, editors, published authors, etc) have stated in numerous forums, blogs, articles and discussions. No point beating a dead horse.

Re: Proposing self-published books to agents- Yes or no?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:13 pm
by williamadams
i know what i know
and i know what i dont know

i too know what publishing professionals have said