What's been going on around here?

What's going on in your writing world? Connect with the writing community here and talk about whatever's on your mind.
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Noizchild
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby Noizchild » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:35 pm

We could form a chat on Chatzy.
You ask me what I thought about
Before we were lovers.
The answer is easy.
Before I met you
I didn't have anything to think about.

-- From "The Love Poems of Marichiko"

mike m.
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:44 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]
you are saying that researchers cant put together the sum of knowledge they find scattered around and put it together into a coherent whole

i dont need any expertise in fiction to write a how to book. my expertise is solving problems and writing how to books based on research of experts who have expertise in applying their knowledge but not able to explain everything that a neophyte would want told to them.[/quote]

If you're just writing a compendium, sure - anyone can do that, with or without experience in the field. But to include an analysis or explanation when you have no expertise in writing fiction - I guarantee you'll come up short. Just based on the types of comments you've made on this forum, you don't have a good understanding of the differences between writing fiction and non-fiction, or an acceptance of the different ways people tap into their creativity. Not to mention that you're only willing to look at one section of novelists instead of the whole spectrum.[/quote]
======

not just adding a compendium
adding my knowledge to make it one that works
most are incomplete and some are hard to follow
my skill is solving problems and teaching others how to solve problems

i guarantee that i will NOT come up short
i did this for a living quite well

i know the differences in doing fiction and NF
and i know how to get creativity done efficiently and effectively
which we often had to do while solving problems

i am willing to look at all novelists
but i will not push a minority opinion in the book
the book will be focused using all the proven techniques by the majority of successful writers

and i will not even mention a method that i cannot tell people how to use
so far pantsing has come up with nothing but nike like a sculptor
just do it
write write write and write some more then throw away everything that does not look like the answer you want

now if some pantser can tell me HOW they do it then i would consider mentioning that as an alternative to the main stream proven methods

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wdarcy
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby wdarcy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:36 pm

[quote="mike m."]

now if some pantser can tell me HOW they do it then i would consider mentioning that as an alternative to the main stream proven methods[/quote]

Check out Steven James's STORY TRUMPS STRUCTURE. James is a very successful writer of FBI thrillers, and he is also an organic writer ("pantser"). In STS he tells you exactly how he does it, and how others can do it. It is one of the best writing books out there.

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"Wagner's 'Das Rheingold'" (Oxford 1993). Winner of the Society for Music Theory's Wallace Berry Award, 1995.

"Elements of Sonata Theory" co-authored with James Hepokoski(Oxford 2006). Winner of the Society for Music Theory's Wallace Berry Award, 2008.

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ostarella
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:27 pm

[quote="mike m."]
now if some pantser can tell me HOW they do it then i would consider mentioning that as an alternative to the main stream proven methods[/quote]

You have been told over and over and over in many discussions on this forum the various ways pantsers write. You refuse to acknowledge their methods or successes, preferring to make snarky comments about "not everybody is a genius" and acting like organic writing is an aberration. You have not written fiction, yet you consider yourself an expert because you've read books by outliners.

You keep talking about putting all this advice you've read to work when you write your novel. And how long have we been hearing that? So let's see you finally put pen in hand and show us all how great your novel is. Surely after all this research you've been doing (for how many years) you should understand how outlining works. Piece of cake.
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:20 pm

[quote="wdarcy"][quote="mike m."]

now if some pantser can tell me HOW they do it then i would consider mentioning that as an alternative to the main stream proven methods[/quote]

Check out Steven James's STORY TRUMPS STRUCTURE. James is a very successful writer of FBI thrillers, and he is also an organic writer ("pantser"). In STS he tells you exactly how he does it, and how others can do it. It is one of the best writing books out there.

--Warren[/quote]
=====

that one i will check out
one of the few i have not read
i had about 200 in my library before we moved and had to downsize
and i have found a few more at the local library since

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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:42 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]
now if some pantser can tell me HOW they do it then i would consider mentioning that as an alternative to the main stream proven methods[/quote]

You have been told over and over and over in many discussions on this forum the various ways pantsers write. You refuse to acknowledge their methods or successes, preferring to make snarky comments about "not everybody is a genius" and acting like organic writing is an aberration. You have not written fiction, yet you consider yourself an expert because you've read books by outliners.

You keep talking about putting all this advice you've read to work when you write your novel. And how long have we been hearing that? So let's see you finally put pen in hand and show us all how great your novel is. Surely after all this research you've been doing (for how many years) you should understand how outlining works. Piece of cake.[/quote]

=======

all i have seen is just write
nobody has shown any method at all

you cant write a textbook with that or teach a course using that approach
nobody has shown me anything about HOW to pants a novel with any detail at all

i acknowledge that a few succeed
but i remain convinced that most of the folks using that method have never finished a novel
and certainly did not get it published other than by kindle

a real genius would plan organise plot and write using a formal process
like rowling patterson and most , not all, of the really successful writers

of course i read books by outliners
i cant find a book by a pantser that tells me anything in detail
kings book was not about HOW to write but was just an interesting read about his writing life

i do not believe in outlining
not as taught in our schools
that was a TOTAL FAIL

i believe in PLANNING, ORGANISING, then plotting and writing
and will include detailed steps to accomplish all of that when i do the how to write book first
i recall seeing someone outline that process here in the past

but nothing for pantsing except NIKE!
write write write and rewrite and somehow it happens

humor me and give me three solid paragraphs that detail how pantsing works
dont need a full book but i need more than write write revise rewrite and repeat until done

dont need anything on being creative
i have processes for being creative
planners are creative

being creative is not unique to pantsing

but i need some substance that can be taught to a class
not just that somehow you do it as that cant be transferred to others to do the same

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ostarella
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby ostarella » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:22 pm

[quote="mike m."]
a real genius would plan organise plot and write using a formal process
like rowling patterson and most , not all, of the really successful writers[/quote]


Bull. You have never come up with any objective measures to prove that even a simple majority of successful writers outline. NEVER. Instead you continually cherry pick the outliners from those few writers who actually discuss their writing methods.

And if you want - AGAIN - details of how people write, go back through all the threads that deal with outlining versus pantsing. And this time, try reading them for comprehension instead of ways to insult those who write organically.
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mike m.
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby mike m. » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:47 pm

[quote="ostarella"][quote="mike m."]
a real genius would plan organise plot and write using a formal process
like rowling patterson and most , not all, of the really successful writers[/quote]


Bull. You have never come up with any objective measures to prove that even a simple majority of successful writers outline. NEVER. Instead you continually cherry pick the outliners from those few writers who actually discuss their writing methods.

And if you want - AGAIN - details of how people write, go back through all the threads that deal with outlining versus pantsing. And this time, try reading them for comprehension instead of ways to insult those who write organically.[/quote]
====

you can deny the data but it is still true
you can google books on writing and count the number that plan and the few if any that push pantsing but dont tell HOW to do it that way

SUCCESSFUL professional writers plan
millions of amateurs may try to pantsit

i have read all the posts here
no pantser has given anything more than they just do it that way and are true genii and can do it that way

give me some real facts
all you ever do is claim they are here somewhere but you have never posted a method that can be shown to someone for them to use

i dare you to actually post 3-5 short paragraphs right here right now
with the essence of the method a pantser uses so that it could be expanded to teach a class using that method
i dont think you can do more than say you just write and it happens
and you feel more creative that way
and you enjoy seeing where the characters take you
or something similar
but not a real HOW that is useful for teaching others so they can actually do it too

this is where you whine to pls and he bans me
because he loves pantsing and hates for anyone to show it is not a viable method for most people

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ostarella
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby ostarella » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:47 am

1 - "you can deny the data but it is still true
you can google books on writing and count the number that plan and the few if any that push pantsing but dont tell HOW to do it that way "

If that's how you do research, I now have to question how you made "boatloads" of money with your nonfiction. Counting the number of books google gives you is like shaking one apple tree, counting the number of wormy apples that fell from that tree, and proclaiming the majority of ALL apples are worm-infested. That's the kind of research a high schooler does when they remember a homework assignment the morning its due.


2 - "i dare you to actually post 3-5 short paragraphs right here right now
with the essence of the method a pantser uses so that it could be expanded to teach a class using that method"

Why? So you could once again complain because we're not leading you by the nose through all the steps - steps that vary with each writer, steps that change with each story, steps that have been explained over and over and over and you still don't get it. The problem is not in people not explaining their method to you - the problem is you don't listen when they do.


3 - "this is where you whine to pls and he bans me
because he loves pantsing and hates for anyone to show it is not a viable method for most people"

I don't whine to pls. We have a lot of writers on here who outline and don't get banned. Know why? Because they're not obnoxious, dogmatic, and insulting about their method, nor are they obnoxious, dogmatic, and insulting toward those who use a different method. And frankly, if you're so upset about constantly getting banned, why the H do you keep sneaking back here?
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Re: What's been going on around here?

Postby Oldtimer » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:26 am

Will this argument between you two (Ostarella and mike m.) never end? It's been going on for months now and nothing new has come of it. Can't you agree to differ?
Read samples of my Martian series (by Dorothy Piper) and two romances (by Joni Havel) on Smashwords.
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